DUBNER: Describe for me your father and his work, and how it became a family business. If you wanted to reduce this to a slogan of Americanism, it might be something like: I am me, deal with it. This fits quite snugly with the fact that the U.S. has been found to be the most individualistic culture in the world. And then I meet you all, and then youre not. And its not because they themselves dont have collective experiences, particularly within ethnicity, but part of the price of becoming American is to give up the collectivity of your ethnic background. That is one of the main guests in todays episode. Find ratings and reviews for the newest movie and TV shows. Theyll say, The Scandinavians have great childcare and family-leave policies. Or theyll say, China has built more high-speed rail in the past few years than the U.S. has even thought about. So, naturally, the next question is: cant the U.S. just borrow these Scandinavian and Chinese and German ideas and slap them on top of the American way of doing things? Its very, very hard to do. HENRICH: Two players divide a sum of money. In the beginning, Feldman left behind an open basket for the cash, but too often the money vanished. It turns out that Americans were among the least likely to conform. Because when youre living inside a culture well, thats the culture you know; it is what it is. Go out there and make it happen. Each week, Freakonomics Radio tells you things you always thought you knew (but didn't) and things you never thought you wanted to know (but do) from the economics of sleep to how to become great at just about anything. Like, you can buy them on the internet. GELFAND: And there was discussion in the cross-cultural psychology community about how James Bakers unemotionalcommunication style was received as This is not so serious, in terms of Tariq Azizs understanding of Americans intentions. Read the excerpt from Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner's Freakonomics. And he said the reason was that he was a young postdoc, and he had holes in his jeans. All contents Freakonomics. And in a collectivistic society, a person is like an atom in a crystal. And thats different than in Scandinavia and in New Zealand and Australia, which has much more horizontal individualism. In indulgent societies, more people play sports, while in restrained societies, sports are more something you watch. The New Yorker's Malcolm . But even a loose country will tighten up when a threat arises. Well call it The U.S. Is Very Different from Other Countries So Lets Stop Pretending Its Not. Its the first in a series of episodes where well look at different pieces of that difference. The legendary bestseller that made millions look at the world in a radically different way returns in a new edition, now including an exclusive discussion between the authors and bestselling professor of psychology Angela Duckworth. You can followFreakonomics RadioonApple Podcasts,Spotify,Stitcher, orwherever you get your podcasts. Theyre more permissive. GELFAND: And I had that typical New Yorker view of the world, the cartoon where theres New York, and theres New Jersey, and then, theres the rest of the world. And how does this extraordinarily high level of individualism versus collectivism play out? And well see if the pandemic may have just maybe relaxed the American habit of work, work, work. Good on you, I say. So the picture that emerges from these findings is that Americans are less likely to conform in the name of social harmony; and we also treasure being consistent, expressing our true selves, regardless of the context. So after we ran that first project, we redid the entire project, and we took concerns like the one Francisco had. Next on the list: what Hofstedes late father, the originator of this culture model, called power distance. Thats the extent to which the less powerful members of organizations or institutions be it society at large or just a family accept and expect that power is distributed unequally.. And thats helped to produce the looseness that exists to this day. Whats a Chaos Muppet? So I would be very interested in knowing whether theres any data on the ethnic component of homicide and suicide. One of the most important figures in economic individualism is the famous Scottish economist, Adam Smith. Models couldnt capture the civil rights movement the individual genius that could emerge in any particular historical moment, whether its Ella Baker or Martin Luther King, and the idea that you have these individual moments of brilliance that then come together to create this just historically unique moment. As its been said: Everyone knows that 11 oclock on Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in American life. Mark Anthony Neal, a professor of African and African-American studies at Duke, notes that American individualism is hardly experienced equally across the population. This feeds back into what Michele Gelfand was talking about earlier, in the context of geopolitical negotiations. The future could be bright. According to a decades-long research project, the U.S. is not only the most individualistic country on earth; we're also high on indulgence, short-term thinking, and masculinity (but low on "uncertain. This does not mean that no one in a loose culture, like the U.S., is stigmatized or mistreated. GELFAND: Groups that are of lower status tend to live in tighter worlds. And what does he have to say about American culture? Whereas people from less individualistic societies tend to be better at making relative-size judgments. The U.S. is overall relatively loose. Is that a yes? We promise no spam. after? The Pros and Cons of America's (Extreme) Individualism. On a certain level, this is obvious: These are cultures that have norms and traditions that have endured for centuries. NEAL: I think thats always been a tension in Black culture, around this idea of Americas rugged individualism and the collectivity of Blackness that was born out of necessity because of segregation. Equating individualism with selfishness may be a mistake: Some of the world's wealthiest and most individualistic countries are some of the most altruistic, says 13.7 guest commentator Abigail Marsh. That, again, is the American culture scholar Joe Henrich. A tight country like Germany tends to set strict limits on noise, with mandated quiet hours. New York City, meanwhile, has been called not just the city that never sleeps, but the city that never shuts up. Tight countries tend to have very little jaywalking, or littering or, God forbid, dog poop on the sidewalks. Weve interviewed dozens of academic researchers about lowering healthcare costs or improving access to childcare or building smarter infrastructure or creating a more equitable economy. They set out to explore the inner workings of a crack gang, the truth about real estate agents, the secrets of the Ku Klux Klan, and much more. After 25 years at the University of Maryland, shes moving to the business school at Stanford. DUBNER: When I look at the loosest country in the data, I see Ukraine. Its more about how individuals are acted upon by the people and institutions around them. What we saw in Egypt was very similar. Joe HENRICH: Americans and Westerners more generally are psychologically unusual from a global perspective. Out into the ocean where they were caught by people on jet skis. The fifth cultural dimension is one that I think will resonate with everyone whos ever listened to Freakonomics Radio, since it is at the crux of problem-solving. We visit the world's busiest airport to see how it all comes together. The same experiment was done in other, non-WEIRD countries, like Ghana and Zimbabwe. 469). So you could over-eat and over-indulge and over-drink. It means I did it my way.. I must be American. Why the business school? And the research subject explained to him that, Oh, I feel so bad for you that you cant afford pants without holes in them that I cant take the money from this poor American kid. And it struck me as a way in which this experiment could be perverted. Michele Gelfand notes that even other individualistic countries tend to have more social checks and balances than the U.S. GELFAND: When you look at cultures like New Zealand or Australia that are more horizontal in their individualism, if you try to stand out there, they call it the tall poppy syndrome. GELFAND: And that suggests that minorities, women, people of different sexual orientation, when they violate the same rule, might be held to higher accountability, to more strict punishment. GELFAND: In societies that are tighter, there is more community-building where people are willing to call out rule violators. FREAKONOMICS is the highly anticipated film version of the phenomenally bestselling book about incentives-based thinking by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner.. 1, the most individualistic country in the world, 91 out of 100 on the Hofstede scale of individualism. In a collectivistic setting, if you try something new, you are maybe telling your group that you dont like them so much anymore and you want to leave them, which is not a good thing socially. Freakonomics is a collaboration of authors Steven Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner, journalists and winners of numerous awards. HENRICH: This probably wouldnt be in a psych textbook, but something like the Ultimatum game. A child is a child, and a parent is a parent, and a parent decides for the child. By this time, Hofstede the Elder had already gotten a Ph.D. in social science. . So, lets try to measure this., Gelfand and several colleagues undertook a massive research project, interviewing some 7,000 people from 33 countries on five continents. But for folks who are pushed out of the mainstream you know, Black folks have rarely had the luxury of thinking about just simply being themselves. Tightness and compliance would seem to go hand-in-hand. In 2016, Henrich published a book called The Secret of Our Success: How Culture Is Driving Human Evolution, Domesticating Our Species, and Making Us Smarter. And that is a status-worthy thing. Apparently over 50 percent of cats and dogs in the U.S. are obese. Tight cultures, she writes, are usually found in South and East Asia, the Middle East, and in European countries of Nordic and Germanic origin.. And in a restrained society, theres going to be suicide. GELFAND: So, that has a lot of other effects on debt, on alcoholism, on recreational drug use. GELFAND: The next day, I booked a trip to Egypt. GELFAND: The data suggests that those countries in Eastern Europe, are extremely loose, almost normless, we might say, because after the fall of the Soviet Union, these countries did a pendulum shift. We said that a lot of good ideas and policies that work elsewhere in the world cant work in the U.S. because our culture is just different. HOFSTEDE: Well, if you want an honest answer, I think mainly our own curiosity. HENRICH: Some people grow up speaking languages like Mandarin, where you have to learn to distinguish words just by the tone. That would be very beneficial because now you might be going down the path of civil war, really. Although the concept of an individual may seem straightforward, there are many ways of understanding it, both in theory and in practice. And we can see a strong trend that looseness has increased over the last 200 years. NEAL: As someone who specialized in the African-American experience, and is African-American myself, I often fall back on the way the late Amiri Baraka described Black culture as a changing same.. Downloads: 18. Whereas in countries that are bogged down in cronyism and corruption, it doesnt happen. We also realize that were a culture in distress in many, many, many ways. In our . It is still the case that you did have the summer of love. If you no longer even pretend to be one people and to be fair to all the citizens of your country, then youre not going down a road that leads to a great future. One hallmark of short-term thinking: a tendency toward black and white moral distinctions versus shades of gray. Just like good science, good . Whereas looking away in a very egalitarian society is seen as a sign of deceptiveness. Stripped of our culturally acquired mental skills, he writes, we are not so impressive when we go head-to-head in problem-solving tests against other apes, and we certainly are not impressive enough to account for the vast success of our species. Henrich recently followed that book with another one called The WEIRDest People in the World: How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous. In our previous episode, we made what may sound like a bold claim. Thats Mark Anthony Neal of Duke University. This is where he combines all his academic interests: not just economics and psychology, but also anthropology and evolutionary biology. That was our hypothesis, at least. The comedians John Oliver, Hannah Gadsby, and Kumail Nanjiani all grew up outside the U.S. Download Print. But when you use data to measure the specific dimensions of a given culture, and compare them to other countries, you see some stark differences. And some advice from our new Dutch friend. And we made sure that the subjects knew that the money was coming from an organization, that the giver did not get any of the money, we ratcheted up our levels of anonymity. Its part of our founding D.N.A. DUBNER: Do you think the average American and the average fill in the blank Laotian, Peruvian, Scot will be substantially more alike in 20 or 50 years, or not necessarily? DUBNER: Im curious for advice on how we should balance weve become an economic powerhouse, and we recognize that there is a lot of benefit to that. And life is an adventure. He did some work in the factory and it shaped him to a great extent because there, he could see that the world of the organization looks so differently from the floor than it does from above. So he read about factor analysis, which had become a little bit fashionable at the time. HOFSTEDE: I like this question a lot. The Pros and Cons of America's (Extreme) Individualism. You had Woodstock, and youre going to have this kind of stuff happening again. This is part of the history that made the U.S. a hotbed for individualism and it also changed the character of the places these people left. And it should stay there. The negotiations didnt work out. Baker was Bushs secretary of state; Aziz was Husseins deputy prime minister. GELFAND: Clinton went to negotiate to say, Hey, this is just totally inappropriate, this punishment. And the Singaporean governments reaction was, Look, this is our culture. Within countries, there is of course enormous variation. Controlling for a variety of other factors, they found that looser countries the U.S., Brazil, Italy, and Spain have had roughly five times the number of Covid cases and nearly nine times as many deaths as tighter countries. And this dynamic leads to a lot of fighting for the sake of fighting. Did you know there is an entire academic field called cross-cultural psychology? An expert doesn't so much argue the various sides of an issue as plant his flag firmly on one side. SuperFreakonomics was the follow-up in 2009. DUBNER: And what would you say is maybe a political ramification of low power distance? The Pros and Cons of America's (Extreme) Individualism (Replay) According to a decades-long research project, the U.S. is not only the most individualistic country on earth; we're also high on indulgence, short-term thinking, and masculinity (but low on "uncertainty avoidance," if that makes you feel better). Europe has very strong gradients between very individualistic Nordic and Anglo and Germanic countries; Germanic is a little bit more collectivistic. Nevertheless, you might be able to intentionally create pockets of looseness so you can have more balance. All contents Freakonomics. This paper examines the production of race on the Internet by examining the elements that make up the weblog Freakonomics: the topic, the environment, the medium, and the users. The Pros and Cons of America's (Extreme) Individualism. If you plot the U.S. on G.D.P. GELFAND: We have a lot of work to do, theres no question. I do think that that particular story is idiosyncratic to his experience. Ambiguity is good. Still Sore, Clinton Decries Planned Singapore Flogging of American, The Differences Between Tight and Loose Societies. I do think that humanity as a whole is sort of evolving to being more reflective. OLIVER: Baseballs were hit from the deck of a warship from a needlessly inflatable batting cage. You can never admit weakness or failure. Dubner speaks with Nobel laureates and provocateurs, intellectuals and entrepreneurs, and various other underachievers. The fourth original dimension was called uncertainty avoidance. This has to do with how comfortable people are with ambiguity. Youre going to be shut down. HENRICH: If you go to other societies, people are much more willing to give the same wrong answer to go along with others. HOFSTEDE: Because its true: the very same dimensions under different circumstances, can work the other way. His ideas, along with others, are credited with . I mean, youve got your quota, as have we all, but youre not. 534. You have to pronounce it right. He started out as an anthropologist; but he started mixing and matching disciplines to suit his curiosity. That, again, is Mark Anthony Neal, from Duke. She was majoring in pre-med. More information on phishing. The other point is a reminder: Its good to be humble about our ability our inability, actually to predict how a given culture will change. SFU users should ignore all messages requesting Computing ID and/or password information, no matter how authentic they may appear. When they took out Mubarak, this went the opposite extreme to almost anomie, normlessness. What is culture? And democratic. Im a professor of artificial sociality at Wageningen University in the Netherlands. DUBNER: I remember once, years and years ago, when I was reading this research that you were doing, speaking with Francisco Gil-White, who was then at Penn, and he told me that when he was running this Ultimatum experiment, I dont remember where I want to say Mongolia. We just need to do it. We should be nice to one another. But when push comes to shove, most of the time it doesnt go that way. Well go through the other five dimensions, much faster, I promise. In general, humans behave a certain way because they either perceive that behavior as offering a reward of some kinda positive incentive, or "carrot"or they avoid certain behaviors because those behaviors seem to lead to a punishmenta negative . GELFAND: Apparently over 50 percent of cats and dogs in the U.S. are obese. We look at how these traits affect our daily lives and why we couldn't change them . Think Belarus, Myanmar, Russia, China. But Joe Henrich wanted to see how the Ultimatum experiments worked when it wasnt just a bunch of WEIRD college students. The second one measures whats called power distance. (Dont worry, well explain the name later.) Or more human-made threats, like how many times has your nation been invaded over the last 100 years? According to a decades-long research project, the U.S. is not only the most individualistic country on earth; we're also high on indulgence, short-term thinking, and masculinity. This interest goes back to those negotiations between Jim Baker and Tariq Aziz. Nobody can feel insulted. HOFSTEDE: That could be the case, and it is also the case that you have a sort of non-overt multiculturalism in the society. We just need to do it. And you could have a perfect storm in that direction. Theres some D.N.A. GELFAND: The U.S. tends to not just be individualistic, like Hofstede or others have shown, but very vertical, very competitive in its individualism. Why not? GELFAND: When we ask people, What does honor mean to you? in the U.S., a lot of people talk about work. So looking decisive, muscular, active or if youre a woman, sexy that makes you more status-worthy. And Im particularly interested in how its shaped our psychology. HOFSTEDE: This is actually a little bit of an unfortunate name. Its the tiny differences in sociality. The Coronavirus Shutdown Is Revealing Americas Troubling Obsession With Work, Those Who Stayed: Individualism, Self-Selection and Cultural Change During the Age of Mass Migration, A Rising Share of the U.S. Black Population Is Foreign Born, 10 Minutes with Geert Hofstede on Indulgence versus Restraint, 10 Minutes withGeert Hofstede on Masculinity versus Femininity, 10 Minutes with Geert Hofstede on Individualisme versus Collectivisme, Dimensionalizing Cultures: The Hofstede Model in Context, A Re-Inquiry of Hofstedes Cultural Dimensions: A Call for 21st Century Cross-Cultural Research, The Churching of America, 1776-2005: Winners and Losers in Our Religious Economy, Horizontal and Vertical Individualism and Achievement Values: A Multimethod Examination of Denmark and the United States, Hofstedes Model of National Cultural Differences and Their Consequences: A Triumph of Faith A Failure of Analysis. Freakonomics Radiois produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. The next cultural dimension is what Hofstede and his late father called masculinity. That title is a bit misleading. It always was unsustainable, but was made even more acute to us. And they were finding that people in Africa were not falling victim to this illusion. His late father was a social psychologist who devised a system to rank countries on several dimensions including their level of individualism versus collectivism. The American model is among the most successful and envied models in the history of the world. Freakonomics, M.D. Freakonomics Science 4.7 932 Ratings; Each week, physician and economist Dr. Bapu Jena will dig into a fascinating study at the intersection of economics and healthcare. The final dimension on the Hofstede model is called indulgence versus restraint. The fifth dimension in the Hofstede universe came in the early 1980s, in collaboration with a Canadian social psychologist named Michael Bond, who was working in Hong Kong. Do you know what you are? Im a professor of artificial sociality at Wageningen University, in the Netherlands. This suggests that every time a social scientist runs an experiment whose research subjects are WEIRD thats capital-letter WEIRD the results of that experiment may be meaningful in the U.S. and some other places, but quite likely not in others. Neal is a professor of African and African-American studies. But the Hofstede definition of long-termism is a bit more nuanced: it means seeing the world as being in a constant state of flux, which means always preparing for the future. GELFAND: And it caused a real international crisis because the Singapore government gave him what was then classic punishment, which was caning. We can think about extraordinarily loose contexts like Tesla or Uber that probably need a little more structure. The reason we reached out to Michele Gelfand is that I want to understand this stuff better, too. In a more masculine society, men and women adhere to the gender roles you might think of as patriarchal: fathers, for instance, take care of the facts, while mothers handle the emotions. Or if it will change at all. BUSH: Allied air forces began an attack on military targets in Iraq and Kuwait. Read the following excerpt from Levitt and Dubner's Freakonomics. Sometimes incentives will be obvious, but often they will be hidden - and . You realize, you want a black or white value judgment. Open Document. Stay up-to-date on all our shows. John Oliver, Hannah Gadsby, and youre going to have this kind of happening. An individual may seem straightforward, there are many ways of an individual seem. Realize that were a culture in the past few years than the U.S. are obese a political of. Do with how comfortable people are willing to call out rule violators sum of money about. To this illusion almost anomie, normlessness wasnt just a bunch of WEIRD students. 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